bpaforum.freeforums.org

The Avenue Chat Room
Home Page Play games in the arcade * Home Page Home Page Home Page
  Register
Login 
View unanswered posts View active topics

Delete all board cookies


Contact Us | All times are UTC



Welcome
Welcome to bpaforum

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. In addition, registered members also see less advertisements. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, join our community today!


Home Page Home Page  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page
 Previous << 
1, 2, 3, 4
 >> Next 
  Print view
Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:58 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:59 pm
Posts: 695
John Dewhirsts insightful historical post was an interesting read. Convienient examples shown to indicate a degree of lack of importance in a name. However if his club and supporters suffered the same terrible fate ours had i am sure he would want to hang onto as much shred of history as possible. Even if it is an annoyance to some of his fellow fans who would like to forget we exist and were a bigger club at one time or some of our own fans who dont care and i am not even sure want us to increase our fanbase from a small "private members" club. I have seen more than enough examples from historical documents including my programme collection to know its Bradford WITH the brackets. It may sound pedantic but so what. The club currently alternate the two traditional sets of colours home and which is fine so John Dewhirst need have no need to worry on that score. Its RAB and GW what the other club in the Bradford do is upto them. For "commercial" reasons why not polka dots or diamond shapes for a change :)


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:12 pm
Posts: 1420
When the club reformed in 1988, I understood that they reformed as Bradford Park Avenue (1988) as they could not reform as Bradford (Park Avenue) because that name belonged to the old club and to take that name would mean taking all the debts that went with the liquidated club.
Can someone clarify this for me?


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:57 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
rusty68 - The sad reality is that younger generations have little interest in the history of either Bradford or Bradford City. Anything pre-1992 is considered pre-historic and irrelevant. Likewise, the vast majority of those who follow City have little idea about what goes on at Horsfall and frankly they don't care less. Those are not partisan comments - honestly - it is the reality and whilst I respect the reason why there has been much so much bitterness between the two clubs / supporters I am not convinced it is healthy to sustain it ad nauseum given that the best hope for BPA to recruit fans is from those who might otherwise be tempted to VP. I am keen to promote interest in the history of Bradford football and the old rivalry because within ten years or so it will have passed out of living memory. The observations I offered above were based on historic facts - my own collection of BPA memorabilia includes every programme 1958-70 and a good selection from earlier seasons and I know that there was inconsistency in the application of the name. The selection of the 1961/62 examples was simply that I had bought them from your club shop only a couple of days before. With regards to City fans begrudging the revival of BPA, Tim Clapham will recall that I assisted him with the promotion and sale of his book in 1987 and in 1989 helped publish the 'Avenue Fightback' publication through The City Gent to raise interest in BPA. Ditto my most recent publishing efforts have deliberately sought to raise awareness about BPA and the books have been targeted principally at BCAFC supporters for the basic reason that there are far more of them (ie compare and contrast average attendances). Like many Bradfordians, my father followed BOTH Bradford clubs and in my household there was regret at the fate of BPA and the demise of Bradford soccer generally. Apologies for any offence caused to you by my posting.

Stephenkillick - I doubt that the 1988 successor would have been held liable for the old liabilities more than 10 years after the original liquidation. It would have been difficult for any creditor to claim that the new club was liable for the original debts. I have copies of the statement of affairs produced by Rushtons in 1974 and it is highly doubtful that any records existed to substantiate outstanding debts anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:33 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:59 pm
Posts: 695
Well sorry to not let sleeping dogs lie and slope off into history. I am myself avidly interested in history and also note a very late influx of floating fans to Manningham, due to brilliant marketing and joined up ticket policy. As i know you will be aware John as a Mannningham fans things in football can change quite quickly and if any club ever deserved that, It is ours. Just to reiterate my programmes use Bradford with the brackets. Hegginbotham the man with the wig probably will be smiling down on you..i hope the wig slips.


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:53 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:59 pm
Posts: 695
John i think we are proving, in some small way some young fans do know there history and do care. Why else did so many families go to Leeds etc than follow Manningham when our club closed down. Well done them! I love our fans because they are true fans, battling on and not just glory hunting after an unexpected
appearance at Wembley.That really is what I love about our great clubs fans. Real diehards.


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:46 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
I have to admit that your last comment is one of the daftest that I have read. The reason that people went to support L666ds, Burnley and Huddersfield was that Bradford football was dire. Bradford Northern suffered the same fate but it happened well before the extinction of BPA in 1974. This clipping from 1950...


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:54 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
May 1950...


Attachments:
Untitled.jpg
Untitled.jpg [ 200.33 KiB | Viewed 365 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:57 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
Rusty, I assume that you must have missed these examples because you had already sloped off to Elland Road...


Attachments:
bpa may-63.jpg
bpa may-63.jpg [ 85.57 KiB | Viewed 364 times ]
bpa a oct-63.jpg
bpa a oct-63.jpg [ 65.92 KiB | Viewed 364 times ]
bpa a oct-55.jpg
bpa a oct-55.jpg [ 93.74 KiB | Viewed 364 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:58 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
more examples...


Attachments:
bpa6869.jpg
bpa6869.jpg [ 44.89 KiB | Viewed 363 times ]
bpa v hudds 1957.jpg
bpa v hudds 1957.jpg [ 24.91 KiB | Viewed 363 times ]
bpa v bc sep-50.jpg
bpa v bc sep-50.jpg [ 80.47 KiB | Viewed 363 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:58 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
...and two more


Attachments:
IMG_0097.jpg
IMG_0097.jpg [ 116.02 KiB | Viewed 362 times ]
IMG_0087.jpg
IMG_0087.jpg [ 73.76 KiB | Viewed 362 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:03 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
And this one from 1938...

Notwithstanding that the legal name of the club was Bradford (Park Avenue) AFC it is difficult to make the case that the name was enforced consistently or with any discipline.


Attachments:
bpa bazaar oct-38.jpg
bpa bazaar oct-38.jpg [ 20.57 KiB | Viewed 366 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:21 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:41 pm
Posts: 827
Re my earlier post then re programmes and brackets or not. "And the scores on the doors are....?"


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:19 am
Posts: 1320
John the last comment Rusty made about that vile creature Heginbotham was correct he hated us and did a bit to bring us down.
On liking Manningham fans em no thanks I remember as a boy when we beat you at VP adults yes adult Manningham fans spitting vitriol at BFC families and children. I will never forget that I was a boy when dad turned around on them he was 6"5" a big broad man they scuttled away. I will keep a healthy distance from those "lovely Manningham fans"


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
I do think that the world has moved on. I'd also wager that there are more ex-BPA supporters attending games at VP now than there are at Horsfall.

With regards to Stafford Heginbotham, or indeed previous chairmen of both clubs - in particular the Waddiloves and Briggs - they realised at VP as well as at PA that Bradford could not support two clubs and to all intents and purposes both clubs sought to be the last man standing. Waddilove did his level best to secure an advantage and had Bradford not been relegated in 1950 history could have been different. The post-war history of both clubs was abysmal but like him or loathe him, Stafford provided the leadership that was lacking at Park Avenue. There is no disguising boardroom ineptitude at PA after 1955 but the issue had more to do with no-one having deep enough pockets to fund the losses / debts. By the 60s the dynamic between the two clubs was more akin to two bald men fighting over a comb.

Bradford is much different in the twentieth century and I do genuinely think it is a shame that there cannot be goodwill between the supporters of the two clubs which do represent Bradford after all. A couple of City supporters said to me today that after the negative comments made by Bradford supporters at the time of City's most recent financial crisis they would not entertain going up to Horsfall. Ultimately the challenge for Gareth Roberts et al is to increase attendances and support at Horsfall and the obvious thing is to try and tap into the numbers who go to VP. Otherwise BPA, brackets or no brackets, will be forgotten altogether.

Anyway, congrats on the great escape - I genuinely happy that it was achieved even though I appreciate that not everyone on this forum will be wanting BCAFC to progress through the play-offs.


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:28 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:59 pm
Posts: 695
johndewhirst wrote:
Rusty, I assume that you must have missed these examples because you had already sloped off to Elland Road...
Erm, pure and simply once our club was no more obviously people like me, as very many did went off to the likes of Leeds as to watch Bradford City would be sacrilege. Some, as we know, such as my Grandad stopped watching football completely as devastated and switched to rugby such was the extent of football rivalry. I assume you would have done the same should a similar fate have befallen your club. I am, if nothing else consistent UTA


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:41 pm
Posts: 827
Nothing wrong with rivalry.Of the friendly banter type. Totally agree with your paragraph about us and moving forward John. Not so sure about the amount of our ex-fans though. Most I know have spread quite far and wide...but they were quite partisan! As myself then. So thanks for the congrats to us....and all the best to the end of your season. (Still a little hard to say but easier now we've stayed up!!).
I basically gave up watching and played on a Saturday as well as Sunday instead and just went to the odd game here and there...even to VP a few times. Never the same for me watching as a neutral though. And can fully understand how your grandad and many others at that time felt Rusty. I actually watched Northern most from mid 70's to mid 80's.
Have to say though...Born in Bradford so follow your hometown team....at whatever level. Especially those born after 1974!!


Last edited by ageingbackseater on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:19 am
Posts: 1320
John I'm sorry I couldn't support Manningham when we left Park Avenue we stopped my dad said I'm not stepping foot in that **it *ole. We stopped virtually watching football an odd game at Aldershot or Bristol Rovers. I've cheered on Rovers beating you and the Shots also I just couldn't support or watch your lot full stop!


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:17 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
Interesting point about the rugby. In 1903 however there is evidence that a lot of Manningham rugbyites went to PA and Keighley benefited from those in the Aire valley. Post 1907 and pre Odsal interesting that Bradford Northern only played big games at VP and not PA given ill-feeling over the Great Betrayal.

What tends to be overlooked is that both clubs benefited from a significant proportion of floating fans who picked their fixtures. This was evident when BC / BPA swapped divisions between 1958-63 and to an extent at the end of the decade. Again this was a theme going back to c19th. Certainly my father's family who originated from Little Horton went to VP one week and PA the following. It was the loss of the floaters that deprived the Bradford clubs of spectators and these were the people who went beyond the district for their entertainment. You can see from this graph which shows the combined average gates at BC / BPA that by the 1960s most people had turned their back on Bradford football and City, Avenue as well as Northern lost out to the Leeds revival. The same was true for Huddersfield and Halifax. In the early/mid 70s there was little or no incentive to go to VP. The hopes of the promotion in 68/69 had fizzled out and City had dropped back to Division Four. Why? Because the club was bust and at the very same time that BPA was in its death throes there were crisis appeals to avoid insolvency at VP. Short of a radical recapitalisation Bradford football at that stage was on its last legs. By the late 60s only the most-committed Avenue fans were still attending games and most had given up altogether. Not only was the standard of Bradford football so dire, there was also an attitude shared among generations of BC / BP followers of having been let down by their clubs (ie boards) to the extent that cynicism ruled.

Yes, VP was a s***hole and offered little attraction to new followers. The historic evidence from as long ago as the late c19th is that Bradford fans on the whole had far stronger feelings about attending games at VP than the other way round, as much because of facilities as prejudice about BCAFC. The reality was that VP was decrepit by the end of WW2 and so too, the district of Manningham was on a downward trajectory (that the area around PA has subsequently followed). Nevertheless, there was a clear geographical divide within Bradford that tended to define allegiance simply because VP was more convenient to those in the N and E of Bradford etc. The BCAFC share register from the 1920s shows this in detail with most people based in Manningham, Heaton, Frizinghall, Eccleshill & Shipley etc. This was a product of urban geography and Bradford's dismal road infrastructure and the same is true now.

From today's vantage it is easy to overlook the fact that PA was pretty ramshackle itself and this is evident from photographs, anecdotal stories as well as the accounts which disclose minimal expenditure on the ground. I remember myself as a young child the impression of it being a tired ground. By the mid-60s the point of no-return had been passed and the possibility of the two Bfd clubs combining at PA was simply unaffordable. Hence in the end it was a case of last man standing but Stanley Waddilough had been equally focused on gaining economic advantage over BCAFC from the mid 30s as Stafford was in the late 60s. The real difference however was that Stafford didn't have to try hard because of the ineptitude in the PA boardroom. My father was good friends with Leonard Evan's son and the stories he told were quite unbelievable about how BPA was run. Once the estate of Stanley Waddilough had asked for repayment of his loans the end was nigh at PA and what is surprising is that BPA survived as long as it did.

With regards to former Avenue fans attending games at VP, I know a number who started attending in the late 80s. What you are seeing is a lot of families attending games at VP and I have a neighbour who is a former BPA fan who now goes with his City supporting grandson. The younger generations have little if any idea of old rivalry and see BCAFC as simply 'Bradford' - the town club. I hate to say it, but people have moved on. Bradford football is now far removed from the circumstances of fifty or even forty years ago as an extension of the graph would show.

In the nineteenth century there is evidence that sport played a big part in defining a Bradford identity and my belief is that the demise of Bradford football in the twentieth century undermined a sense of civic pride or confidence in the district which was to its detriment. Fast forward to the twenty-first century and the future of the district is questionable - you only have to read the T&A or wander around the centre to get a sense of a 'sink city'. The revival of BCAFC has been successful in at least encouraging a Bradford identity and bringing people into town on a match day. Whilst it will not single-handedly regenerate the city, it adds more to the district than it detracts and gives it a certain feel good factor.

I believe that there is mutual benefit of co-existence and as I said before, it is the pool of football enthusiasts now attending games in the city who are the opportunity for BPA to tap into.

PS To go back to the brackets I suspect that the bracketed name - Bradford (Park Avenue) - was intended to appease those critics who insisted on unambiguous differentiation. For example in all other towns in England where there are two clubs, each has a distinct suffix. My suspicion is that this was insisted upon by the Football League (as opposed to the FA) and the use of brackets was a way of saving face. Again, no other club has brackets in its name to my knowledge.


Attachments:
attendances.jpg
attendances.jpg [ 63.71 KiB | Viewed 218 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:19 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:22 pm
Posts: 31
PS Graph is FL crowds only - excludes BPA in NPL


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline 
 Post subject: Re: "The Return of the Brackets"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:44 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:28 am
Posts: 2925
rusty68 wrote:
johndewhirst wrote:
Rusty, I assume that you must have missed these examples because you had already sloped off to Elland Road...
Erm, pure and simply once our club was no more obviously people like me, as very many did went off to the likes of Leeds as to watch Bradford City would be sacrilege. Some, as we know, such as my Grandad stopped watching football completely as devastated and switched to rugby such was the extent of football rivalry. I assume you would have done the same should a similar fate have befallen your club. I am, if nothing else consistent UTA


Go to Leeds?? Manningham??

I went to Orient (as they were then called), as you do! And now look what's happened to them! I've just bought a ticket for the O's wake at Blackpool on Saturday week.

And John - nothing in football is forever. Who would have thought in Ian Holloway's heyday that, within a decade, Blackpool would be playing a division lower, and quite possibly two divisions lower next season, than Fleetwood of the NWCL Premier division? Not to mention Burton Albion beating Leeds.

Your crowds are only what they are because you let your own supporters in for next to nothing. How many of your season ticket holders turn up for cup ties when they have to pay?


Top
 Profile  
 
Search for:
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Home Page Home Page  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page
 Previous << 
1, 2, 3, 4
 >> Next 

Contact Us | All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
Jump to:  

Donate Now
Donate Now


Powered by Skin-Lab © Alpha Trion
Hosted by © 2017 FreeForums.org | Create a free forum | Powered by phpBB
About FreeForums | Legal | Advertise Here | Investors | Contact FreeForums.org
suspicion-preferred